Curse

Grj · May 09, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

They nerfed Light of Deliverance and forgot that Mhenlo, the only healing henchmen in EotN, used it and became useless in HM. So I don´t think that Izzy EVER thought even one second about PvE, when it came to "balancing".

The funny thing is now they foiled the playerbase into the mindset that they need the whole month now to make skill changes and test them, but in fact its now worse with all the extra time they have.

Inde · May 09, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Everyone, we DO NOT ALLOW leaks on this board. Nor do we allow them to be discussed, linked to or commented on. I don't care what argument you might think you have about the fact that they were posted or what responsibility the dev or Guru has to post/not post them. They are not allowed.

Still Number One · May 09, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

They nerfed Light of Deliverance and forgot that Mhenlo, the only healing henchmen in EotN, used it and became useless in HM. So I don´t think that Izzy EVER thought even one second about PvE, when it came to "balancing".

You can think what you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. In that particular occasion he either overlooked that or didn't know how big of a deal it would be. People never claim Izzy is the best at his job. That mistake right there just further proves it. Making dumb mistakes doesn't mean he didn't consider it though. It just means he made a dumb mistake, something we come to expect from skill balancing.

haggus71 · May 09, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

"pulls out standard response for all crying about skill balance"

If you think you could do better, learn to code, apply for the job, and do it yourself. Chances are you would be 10 times worse at it.

There are plenty of solo farming builds for every class out there. Hell, Rits can do it with the Vengeful Farmer. Wanna nerf that? Why don't we just nerf [skill]protective spirit[/skill] , [skill]balthazar's spirit[/skill] and [skill]healing breeze[/skill] , since they are in just about every farming build with a Monk primary/secondary.

PvP is not the problem. They've been without con sets, PvE skills, blessings, et al, and still manage balanced, skillful gameplay. If you can't get through an area, or can't team up, with all that to your advantage, blame the player, not the game.

Don't blame Anet for the SF preference. Blame the retards trolling around ToA and ToPK for their mind set. They(or you) are the ones putting out that preference, just like the retards did with the HB Ursan groups for DoA. Part of this, as stated before, is that AI is set in stone, and people want the most efficient way to get around them. Buff or nerf this or that, and you create an opening for something else to become a part of the meta. Nerf too much, and the game becomes an impossible PoS that no casual player(the 99% of players not on these forums) will not want to play.

GG

Mr. G · May 10, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Oh cummon Haggus, you can't honestly believe that. that's like saying that PvP doesn't need a balance if people would just all run balanced builds.

Yichi · May 10, 2009, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

...Why don't we just nerf [skill]protective spirit[/skill]...

Why nerf a perfectly balanced skill? This skill always has and always will function as it is supposed too, yet is kept in check by its recharge, energy cost, and counters to it.

This skill is actually one of a few skills that are considered among the most balanced in the game. It's game mechanics that allow the abuse of this skill, not the skill being imbalanced itself.

Winterclaw · May 10, 2009, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Nerfing prot spirit will have too much of an impact on the game. I think it was said earlier that there isn't much they can do with it.

DreamWind · May 10, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

Come now. I know you have been around long enough to remember all of the skills getting nerfed all to Hell due to PVP balance.

Even if that were true (which I don't believe it is but let's pretend it is), PvP and PvE have been completely split for quite some time now. If PvE is inbalanced, it has NOTHING to do with PvP. Anet has had plenty of time to "revert" any changes or make balances to PvE without influence of PvP. It is not PvP's fault...it is Anet's garbage attempts at balance. PvP players have known this about Anet for years...PvE players now know it too but many of them don't care so its not as big of a deal.

Back then · May 10, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Why nerf a perfectly balanced skill? This skill always has and always will function as it is supposed too, yet is kept in check by its recharge, energy cost, and counters to it.

This skill is actually one of a few skills that are considered among the most balanced in the game. It's game mechanics that allow the abuse of this skill, not the skill being imbalanced itself.

I don't know, I always thought prot spirit was a pretty crazy skill. No other skill in the game can reduce the amount of damage taken that that skill can. 1/4 casting and 5 sec recharge, and a long duration is part of what make that skill so awesome. I'd hate to see it nerfed because Hard Mode might actually be hard without it, but that skill is crazy good and there's no denying that.

About Warrior's endurance... why are people bitching so much about this skill? Because warriors finally have access to energy-based builds? Wars are already the easiest class in the game to counter... I think skills like VoR and the Palm strike build are a hell of a lot more IMBA than warriors being able to use energy based attacks. If they do nerf it, I hope it's for pvp only.

Alleji · May 10, 2009, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

If you think you could do better, learn to code, apply for the job, and do it yourself. Chances are you would be 10 times worse at it.

Oh really? Watch this:

Peace and Harmony
Elite Spell 5e, 3/4 cast, 8 recharge
Att: Divine Favor
Remove 0...2...3 conditions and 0...2...3 hexes from target ally (3 at 13 DF).

Wow, did you see that? I just balanced a skill! Didn't need the least bit of programming knowledge for that. Now just need a coder to adjust those numbers... who can be a different person. Durr.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · May 10, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

My prediction GvG/PvP...

* Aegis (PvP) - 45 Rech
* WE (PvP) - 2 Energy (the recharge is balenced since you need 13-14 Str to maintain)
* Linger (PvP) - 25%, Non AoE, but Degen might be raised slightly OR 25%, AoE and Degen stays
* PnH - Stays as is... QQ all you want, but it will probably stay as is.
* Blood Spike gets nerfed again
* Dervs and Rits get slight Buffs
* Forgotten Ranger skills get found (slight stretch here)
* Monks go QQ and cry to there Moms because, ooh gee... today is Mothers Day!
* Personal Block/Prot Stances and such are increased usage (due to Aegis) ([[Shield Bash], [[Distortion] and [[Return])
* Sword Wars might see a new skill pop up for them since [[Crippling Slash] has deminished to WE Axe and Hammer... If I could pick a skill, [[Magehunter Strike] will be changed to Sword w/ Interrupt and Damage ??? (slight increase on recharge though)

Regulus X · May 10, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

L.Curse (too strong)
W.Endurance (not 'that strong', but does outshine Swordsman)
PnH (too good at defenseballing)
Blood Spike & IWAY *PvP* (nerfage incoming)
Palm Strike (Possible Nerfage)

*Request* Nerf /report and dishonorable systems (far too abusable in Random Arenas; causes anguish, which leads to hate, which leads to the dark side *False Dishonor Hexes & TEMP-BANS*)

Fitz Rinley · May 10, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

After all the damage PvP has done to PvE over the years I could give a rats arse over what happens to PvP. The game in PvE is completely unbalanced. One cannot go into all areas, missions, and dungeons with each and every class and have an enjoyable social gaming experience. If you do not have a specific cookie cutter build for clearing section X, or doing exactly this part of the team for dungeon Y, then you and your friends will not be able to do that dungeon.

That means you're just bad at the game. Surely you can't just grab random skills and go in. If that was true, you'd whine about the game being too easy.

Attention to Detail will assist you a great deal more than a cursory glance and paper mache flame.
At no point did I say anything about bringing any set of random skills. All classes should be able to play with a skill emphasis of choice and be able to contribute effectively to group success in a balanced game. That this is not true is proof GW is not balanced.

Quote:

Also, in PvE you KNOW what you're going to face, so OBVIOUSLY you're going to bring stuff that counters that.

Ok, show list out for me the 20 or so options for Paragon interrupts. I’m going into an area with my Paragon that needs a party of all interrupters, so how about it? Or better, in order to get into a party so I can go into a certain place let us say I have to be a R/Rt trapper with a specific skill bar. Show me how to do that with my Paragon, Mesmer, Elementalist, Warrior, Assassin, Dervish, Necromancer, or Monk. For another I have to be a Mo/Me RoJ Prot or a PermaSin; How do I do this with my Paragon, Mesmer, Elementalist, Warrior, Dervish, Ranger, Necromancer, or Ritualist? I mean obviously I am only going to bring the stuff that counters that, so the rest of my characters, my main character, my preferred characters, they should just get and do nothing because GW doesn’t like a balanced game where you can bring and use any class and effectively and efficiently take part in play everyplace in the game.

Quote:

In PvP, you don't know, and there's no AI just 'I'. Therefore there needs to be balance in PvP.

I am quite aware PvP is based almost exclusively on Ego; it is one of the reasons I don’t play it. And in PvP you do know within a day or so after each nerf everyone settles into the new best build nazi power zerg for pounding to the top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

PvP has been at fault with two main leys of pressure: 1) Insistance that PvE only exists as training to play PvP and these PvE slackers need to just give up their foolish idiotic PvE play and get PvPing because GW was never meant to have a PvE game anyway, and 2) years of skill balancing that was aimed strictly at a PvP world after which the real interest and needs of PvE play were not only not considered, but were punished or even made more difficult because we have no interest in PvP.

Absolutely not true. They didn't build PVE as a training course. That'd be comparing apples to oranges. PvE and PvP are hardly anything alike, and nowhere in the game is anything mentioned with regard to PvP.

You are correct in one part, it was always apples to oranges, but for someone who has been around almost as long as I have you don’t seem to have been paying attention at all. For years all we heard from PvP has been, “PvE only exists to give people experience with the skills so they can PvP anyway,” “PvE isn’t the game, the Dev.s only intended for people to get their skills in PvE and then play PvP forever, like it should be,” etc. Further, the skills changes were always for PvP needs. The AoE nerf was for PvP and to teach PvE players to chase foe like PvP players would react. The Minion Master nerf was to limit massing in PvP matches for GvG, AB, etc. Body blocking so that PvE players can’t maneuver in their environments as effectively as before, and H/H/Pets make stupid get stuck can’t attack glitches all for PvP. Further, you act as if the PvP/PvE skill variations are something that has existed since the beginning of the game. It has not. It just started. And since it started nothing has been done that makes PvE skills more effective for PvE players, the exact opposite has happened instead. PvE skills keep getting destroyed – even the ones that were PvE only and not supposed to be touched because PvPers never used them (Ursan, Seed of Life, Pain Inverter, etc.) How many people were able to kill Duncan the Black with PI and how many will never get a chance to because it was nerfed? And why nerf it – well obviously because it worked. It had to be nerfed because players of all classes might be able to use it to effectively be successful in the game. That is what GW nerfs are all about, preventing player opportunity and success any time they might occur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

So tell me, how did PvP hurt PvE exactly?

PvP has from day one provided the mindset/outlook guiding the destruction of PvE skills and game play. From day one it was based on ignoring PvE structure and needs, and No one can prove to the contrary with what has been done all along to the game, for balancing skills for PvP matches because: O, Noes, the Euroes are pounding the Americainers! O, Noes, the Americainers, won’t quit using IWAY! O, Noes, I got spiked by _____! Once they did split PvE and PvP skills they continued to nerf PvE skills with the same mindset of limiting players, destroying player opportunity, destroying player skill interaction, etc. rather than enhancing them for equitability across the classes. That was planted in, raised in, derived from, and continued out of PvP.

Wish Swiftdeath · May 10, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

My prediction GvG/PvP...

* Aegis (PvP) - 45 Rech
* WE (PvP) - 2 Energy (the recharge is balenced since you need 13-14 Str to maintain)
* Linger (PvP) - 25%, Non AoE, but Degen might be raised slightly OR 25%, AoE and Degen stays
* PnH - Stays as is... QQ all you want, but it will probably stay as is.
* Blood Spike gets nerfed again
* Dervs and Rits get slight Buffs
* Forgotten Ranger skills get found (slight stretch here)
* Monks go QQ and cry to there Moms because, ooh gee... today is Mothers Day!
* Personal Block/Prot Stances and such are increased usage (due to Aegis) ([[Shield Bash], [[Distortion] and [[Return])
* Sword Wars might see a new skill pop up for them since [[Crippling Slash] has deminished to WE Axe and Hammer... If I could pick a skill, [[Magehunter Strike] will be changed to Sword w/ Interrupt and Damage ??? (slight increase on recharge though)

This, though i suspect anet will rework aegis, since they seem to dislike passive defence like aegis.

I also have this niggling feeling Anet will try something with sins...

Brett Kuntz · May 10, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Ithorian I

We were actually having a chat in alliance the other day about anets current stance on PvP - It's been clear for a while now to those most dedicated PvP'ers that anet no longer want to support the community - Izzy is the only one actively communicating with the PvP crowd via his balance forums , and I get the impression from him that he simply channels the ideas given - onto the live support team who then implement and finalise the balance as he primarily focuses on GW2.

I seen the balance update notes earlier on in the week , so why the hell is this being delayed AGAIN !!!

Im sure there was a user with a naughty character name that needed attention asap so you couldnt prioritise this MUCH NEEDED balance.

I'll let all the following pvers thank you anyway for sharing the news , Im not gonna sugar coat you guys are RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing useless.

Cry more about it some more. Balance changes now are no different than they were 4 years ago. A general list is created, it is discussed around for awhile, then it is finalized, sent to QA for testing, and then released to Live. What more could they do? But I'm sure you could do it all in day and not have anyone complain though, because you seem like a superstar.

Kashrlyyk · May 10, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

Also, in PvE you KNOW what you're going to face, so OBVIOUSLY you're going to bring stuff that counters that.

PvP players whine about overpowered skills, because they don´t want to be forced to bring specific counters to that skill. But PvE players should be fine with exactly that?? No, I want the same here. I want to be able to beat any area on both difficulties without being forced to take specific counters to the overpowered stupid enemies in that area, just a decent skill bar and a decent team build and player skill.

So your sentence above is exactly what is not balanced in PvE!

EDIT: I am fine, btw, with Elite areas being more restrictive of what a "decent skillbar" is, but that is not true right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

Absolutely not true. They didn't build PVE as a training course.

Yes, they did! They said on several occasions that the supposed endgame content was PvP in prophecies at least! ANet learned soon, that this is not accepted by the majority and after failing to get more people into PvP with Factions they made Nightfalls and EotN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

Then there's the PvP/PvE skill versions. In other words: PvP balancing doesn't hurt PvE.

The seperation is used way too little. Best example: Ritualists. There are enough examples how PvP hurt PvE. Search for yourself first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Nerfing prot spirit will have too much of an impact on the game. I think it was said earlier that there isn't much they can do with it.

There is a lot they can do to Prot Spirit and Reversal of Fortune, both completly overpowered. But then they would have to look at everything else too. They are just lazy and that is why they don´t nerf both spells.